Corey ([info]sergeantbrother) wrote,
@ 2006-03-05 01:52:00
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Am I the only one who thinks . . .
That current anti-terrorist laws (ie Patriot Act) and tactics (wire tapping) will be heavily used again right wing groups in the very near future, if not already.

Sure, it starts to combat Arab terrorist, because everybody aknowledges that threat and feels the sense of urgency and knows that sometimes sacrifices must be made. But, that's only where it starts, not where it ends.

Already, the Patriot Act has been used against non-terrorist criminals. And the explanation sounds pretty good - they're bad people who are doing things against the law and the government is using its legal powers to apprehend them. Saying it that way makes it sound alright. But it does seem to indicate that the origenal intend of a law doesn;t limit when and how it can be used or potentially abused.

And the real abuse will start with unpopular groups. people like the Ku Kux Klan or neo-Nazis - people who the American people hate enough that they wont mind too much that the government is using unconstitutional methods to target groups it doesn't approve of. Then they'll want to target other far right groups like separatists, gun nuts, militias, etc. Of course, they'll say that they are targeting dangerous extremists and the public outrage will be lessened because a great many people will believe that. I could see a number of directions it could go after getting to that dangerous point where the government spies on people who they see as a threat, but I can certainly see people from the far right being some of the first casualties of these kind of laws.

And I'll end this with a quote from A Man for All Seasons

"Arrest Him."
"Why?"
"That man's bad."
"There's no law against that."
"There is, God's law."
"Then God can arrest him."
"And while you talk he's gone!"
"And go he should if he were the Devil himself until he broke the law!"
"So now you give the Devil benefit of law!"
"And what would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?"
"Yes! I'd cut down every law in England to do that!"
"Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's, and if you cut those down- and you're just the man to do it!- do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes- I give the Devil benefit of law for my own safety's sake."



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[info]pookathemighty
2006-03-05 07:38 am UTC (link)
I forever think of 1984.. where thought is a crime.. and Big Brother watches always...
Overused, yes, but appropriate..

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[info]marauderautarki
2006-03-06 12:15 am UTC (link)
Left wing groups have already been targeted to some extent, especially anti-war groups. The problem is, it's getting harder and harder to know when a group is being targeted and why due to the broad justifications for making information classified.

I agree with you on this and think basically everyone out there should be angry. Very angry. Combine the PATRIOT act with the creeping justification of torture, warrantless wiretaps, indefinite and uncharged detention and put a veil of secrecy over all of it and a very nasty, evil picture is beginning to take shape- and in that picture, many of our basic rights are curbed or don't exist in any meaningful form.

Of course it's not total yet, far from it. But, as you pointed out, it always starts with the groups no one likes...

(Excellent and appropriate quote, btw)

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[info]sergeantbrother
2006-03-06 12:59 am UTC (link)
Well, I know that left wing groups could be targeted too, particularly now with such a right winger like Bush in office. And with Bush in office I think it is more obvious to liberals that these presidential powers can be abused, since they are currently in the hands of such a right winger.

But I wanted to make a point that conservatives, particularly far right type people who dislike the government, should be very affraid of this kind of thing. Because even if W doesn't use the Patriot Act against them, the next president very well might.

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[info]marauderautarki
2006-03-06 08:00 am UTC (link)
Which was my point as well- everyone is threatened by the moves this administration has made. Anyone contrarian, be they left wing or right, had better be worried.

There's a reason why the ACLU made a point throughout most of its history of defending free speech period, including in the case of some notorious right wing racists. They realized, as you point out, that the freedoms are connected as a piece- start to collapse one and the rest will follow.

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[info]mr_hinzelmann
2006-03-06 05:36 am UTC (link)
South Africa had a similar poblem in the late sixties and early seventies. Members of then aparteid government reserved similar executive powers to those granted to Bush in the wake of the 9/11 attacks. They're argument was essentially, "trust us, we need these powers to fight 'bad' men. I will be ok." Members of government and academia who spoke out against their government were removed or fired. Subsequent to the overthrow of the aparteid regime, the South African truth commission discovered and revealed that the fears were well founded. The governemtn had used its expansive executive powers to spy on its own people, especially its internal political adversaries.

In this country, in response to similar itrusions visited upon the colonists by the English government, James Madison and others authored the Fourth Amendment - "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Without going into the depth of the case law, wiretapping is a "search" for Fourth Amendment purposes. This does not mean that it is beyond the pale of the executive to conduct a wiretap, only that he need seek judicial review before doing so. Here's the kicker though, if the executive intrudes upon the security of the individual the only remedy available to the aggreived party os to have that evidence excluded at trial.

Having gotten there, we now see that even before the Patriot Act, the executive could spy on anyone, he just couldn't send people to jail with the information he got.

The Patriot Act does pose an added problem, however. Before, you at least had the protection of the court, through at minimum, a writ of habeus corpus. Now, however, through an executive order, Bush has denied those labelled by the executive branch as an 'enemy combatant' access to the courts. Note that there is no act of Congress here, only an executive order under the Patriot Act. The Supreme Court has always, in light of Congressional limitations on its jurisdiction, stated that there is always an avenue for access to the Court, the "true writ of habeus corpus," but they have never defined it, and it remains to be seen whether the Court will grant certiorari to such a case.

You're right, it isn't hard to imagine the 'enemy combatant' label being expanded to 'Enemy of the United States,' a class that would easily include U.S. citizens with counter majoritarian ideas. If this was the case, most of your other rights would go out the window, starting with free speech, press, and assembly. The question is, would the Court do anything about it? Would Congress? Or if they won't, what can the rest of us do?


Sorry about the length of this, I've been on this tear for a while.

This is [info]selenasaberwind's boyfriend, by the way. Blame her, she sent me over here.

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Sister
[info]rigger01
2006-03-06 08:17 pm UTC (link)
Hey,

can you tell my big sis to pick up her phone. i am graduating in june or july. most likely it will be in june. i finally start school on march 14th. nexxt week. its 12 weeks long. long and boring. keep in touch.

check out its me

www.myspace.com/carrot_top04

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Benefit (?) of age.....
[info]chevalieroscuro
2006-03-19 06:51 pm UTC (link)
Hi Corey..
It's funny...My joke of "I used to be a Republican...But now I'm a conservative.", seems to be becoming more apropo by the day..
I wanted to ask if you had seen "Good Night And Good Luck" yet?
If not, I wanted to urge you to do so..
One: Because it's just a damned good movie.
Two: Because a lot of the things you will see in it will start to sound depressingly familiar.
I remember my mother and others of her generation talking about the McCarthy era... The movie, because it deals with a specific group, mainly behind the public scenes, doesn't cover very much of the things that went on during that time..
It doesn't begin to cover the creeping fear that people began to manifest.
The idea that to disagree with the government, even publicly, which is every American's rite... Could destroy your life completely.
And I have heard people of that generation say that they thought this the defining moment, when people began to suspect that their government was doing things in secret... That were both immoral, and probably illegal. Certainly that were contrary to both the letter and the spirit of the constitution. (Though I admit that falls into the realm of opinion)

I suppose the thing that bothers me the most..Is that I don't see that we have another Edward R. Murrow waiting in the wings.. We don't have someone who, in a calm reasonable voice, can remind people of what being an American is supposed to mean. The "media" that we live with today have squandered and debased the coin of believability that men of Murrow's generation worked very hard to create(not that all of them were angels, by any stretch of the imagination). Replacing it with CNN soundbites and an immaculate hairdo.
*sigh*
Well, I've been feeling a bit of a rant coming... On this particular subject..I think I'll work on it tonight.
Oh, and just for the record, I intend to "borrow" and disseminate your quote. Thank you for posting it. Hope you don't mind.

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